Co-hosts Katie Quinn (@QKatie) and Jen Phanomrat (@JenEatsLife) discuss what Italian concept "cucina povera" has in common with most viral food trends with guest Sophia Roe.
Co-hosts Jen Phanomrat and Katie Quinn discuss the history and concept of "cucina povera" (making the most from simple, seasonal ingredients); Anna Maggio's Under the Olive Tree; and how we can see hints of this "poor cooking" approach in viral food trends today. Later on, chef and VICE Counter Space's Sophia Roe shares why equal access greater representation is important even—especially—in food.
Special thanks to our listener Leo for your question and Brian Quinn (@bqfunk) for our theme music.
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Katie Quinn: Hey, I'm Katie.
Jen Phanomrat: And I'm Jen.
Katie: This is Either Side Eaters.
Jen: We are friends who talk food, whether it's across the table or across the Atlantic Ocean.
Katie: And we answer questions like, "Why is spaghetti carbonara so good, and what makes it timeless?"
Jen: So good. So timeless. Coming up in this episode, we'll talk about cucina povera.
Katie: We'll also chat with the fantastic chef and host of VICE's Counter Space, Sophia Roe, about how the concept of cucina povera crosses all geographical borders. I want to talk about dishes born out of necessity, Jen. So what comes to mind for you when I say "a dish born out of necessity"?
Jen: Rice.
Katie: Oooh.
Jen: Rice has been, in my family, and until now, the bulk filler, the go-to when there's either nothing to eat or uh, you want something quick, you want something to feed as many people as possible.
Katie: Yes. When I think of a dish born out of necessity in terms of my life, I think of when my kitchen is pretty empty and I need to work with what I have, like in the pantry.
Jen: Kitchen potpourri is what I like to call that.
Katie: Kitchen potpourri! Yes! There's something really satisfying of like, actually making something so stinking delicious from something that like, you would never have gone shopping specifically for, like the random thing you put together, but then it ends up being such a winner. That's the best feeling.
Jen: Yeah, I feel like an alchemist in the kitchen.
Katie: Yes.
Jen: Just like, trying to whip up something gorgeous, and it works.
Katie: Yes, and I have to wonder if sometimes that's how certain viral food trends come about. And on that note, let's uh, let's hear a question.
Call-in: Hey Katie and Jen, this is Leo, and I want to know: what are your thoughts on viral food trends, like the feta pasta that I keep seeing everywhere? Thank you!
Katie: This has been on my mind almost daily, because it was so good. (laughing) Have you tried it?
Jen: I haven't. So like, I said it to you when I was really excited about it, because every food show was like, "Oh, this is cool and easy," right? And it--the transformation is quite incredible, especially on video, which I think adds to the virality of it, right?
Katie: Totally.
Jen: Um, but then like, I kept thinking about it, and the more it kept popping up in my feed from uh, different recipes, I kept thinking, you guys, this is a freaking sodium bomb.
Katie: Mmmm.
Jen: Right? And I'm thinking like, these--the portions that I'm used to seeing, and you know, of course, like, you decide how much of the pasta you want to eat at one time, but it seems like, "Oh, here's something to make for you and maybe a partner." It's a whole block of feta.
Katie: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Jen: "Feta." I threw in a little flavor there.
Katie: (laughing) Yeah you did.
Jen: I'm gonna keep saying that. "In feta." (laughing) I don't know. But as long as it's not exploiting a particular ingredient--although I will say at the start of, the boom of this trend, the feta pasta, people kept saying, "This recipe is so popular that Finland ran out of feta."
Katie: That's so interesting.
Jen: Interesting. So because of this, there was a shortage of feta because of this trend, it's like, okay, so that makes you really wanna--I get it, I get it. As long--I feel like I've set up some rules for myself. It's like, okay, if it's, if it's a helpful tip for a home cook, like something that's useful, if it's not wasteful, right? So just like, buying a bunch of ingredients and destroying it for no purpose other than to go viral, absolutely not. Like, I don't like those videos at all. A friend sent me uh, this hack of like, wrapping spaghetti and meat and then, uh, the host put nerd candies on the meat, and said, "This is, this--this add sweetness." And I'm like okay, I was kind of with you there. and like, and I was discussing with my friend Brian, like, "Yeah, we get it," right? But then, when does something become, um, entertaining and educational versus a gimmick?
Katie: Totally.
Jen: So that's an interesting thing to think about.
Katie: And we have lived and learned, and Either Side Eaters listeners, we are here to bring you the good stuff. (laughing) Not bad.
Jen: But also talk about the bad.
Katie: Yeah.
(musical interlude)
Katie: I feel like everyone knows in Italy food is a work of art, right? Even if you don't have much, which historically Italians have not actually had much, and you'd make do with what you have, mangia bene, right? You eat well regardless of your socioeconomic situation. And so the term that we're going to talk about today, it is cucina povera. And it, you know, literally is talking about a poor kitchen, a way of cooking in a poor person's kitchen. So the basic idea, to clarify, is that you make the most of what's in season, you make do with what you have. You don't waste. Just think about, if you have more things in your kitchen than you know what to do with, that doesn't necessarily equate to a satisfying, soul-enriching meal.
Jen: For sure, yeah.
Katie: Think on the other hand, then, if you have very little and you're making do with what you have, and yet you make a feast, a simple but satisfying feast out of it.
Jen: And like, food in season, that's automatically going to taste way better than...
Katie: Yeah, absolutely.
Jen: It's funny when you would like to see it as something as chic, right? When it's thinking about the origins. You know, if you want to say its humble beginnings, right?
Katie: And there is no more perfect way of describing it, like, this is very--the most humble beginnings.
Jen: Yeah.
Katie: And yet so many of the dishes that came from that, and that still are, if you think about it, they still are cucina povera. It is now something that's in, like, in Italian restaurants around the world. It is thought to be so chic and fancy and special. If you think about, I mean, take for instance carbonara, pasta alla carbonara. The ingredients are egg, a hard cheese of some kind, pecorino, parmigiano reggiano, cured pork, and like, black pepper, basically. You know, salt too.
Jen: It's my favorite.
Katie: It's so stinking good, and you've got these, these beautiful coated saucy noodles, and there's so much flavor. But this is--these ingredients are few, they're very simple, you know, meat, if incorporated at all in a cucina povera dish, it is not going to be a big chunk of meat. It's not going to be the star of the show. It will be something small and fatty that adds flavor.
Jen: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Katie: And so that's what--that's what carbonara is, and that is like all around the world, served in restaurants for, in some cases, I don't even want to know how much.
Jen: Yeah, that's--I was going to say, I've been to some places where the plate's like well over 30. It's like, okay. But like, you make it at home and you're like, oh, this is super simple. It's just like you're saying, it's simple few ingredients, but really like...and what I associate a lot of Italian food with is, taking the time with each ingredient. So like, really working in the starch of a water, or...
Katie: Absolutely.
Jen: Right?
Katie: Yeah, exactly. And so another great example is panzanella, the stale bread salad, right? And again, you're using stale bread because you are not letting a darn thing go to waste.
Jen: And bulking up.
Katie: Yes. Make a huge batch of it. So stale bread, tomatoes, onion, olive oil. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.
Jen: That's my summer fave.
Katie: Oh, it's so good. And some basil, I mean, uhhh, yeah, it's so good. I--I have, I have a list in front of me of like, so many examples of famous Italian dishes that are complete embodiments of cucina povera. Ministrone is basically, you know, minestra, soup. It's like water and basically whatever vegetable, whatever bean you have on hand, throw it in. The reason that I love this so much is generally speaking, thankfully many of us live in abundance. We really do, and if there is something we want we can have it delivered to our door. And I just think that the concept of cucina povera is such an important one to remember and to incorporate in our own lives, in whatever shape that might take.
Jen: I noticed in the last year, I really tried to focus on just simplicity, right? And so like, because I didn't want to go to the store as often as I used to, right? Or different types of stores, right?
Katie: The circumstance of COVID made--affected--
Jen: Exactly. Yeah.
Katie: That's so interesting.
Jen: So like, meals that I would usually have more ingredients for, I noticed like I would adapt. So if I was making, uh, there's a Filipino soup called sinigang. It's like this, uh, usually tamarind sour base soup with lots of veg, maybe there's chicken, pork, or shrimp. And I ran out of um, my--like the shortcut (laughing) a lot of Filipinos are like, "You've got to make it from scratch." I do the shortcut tamarind packet, soup base packet from Knorr, yeah? And I would just add that to soups, and that would be, like, instantly make it sinigang-like. But because I ran out of that and I didn't want to go all the way to the my usual market where I source this, I ended up just seeing what I had on hand.
Katie: Yeah.
Jen: And so I would just take lime and add that at the end, you know? And, and I had still a little bit of fish sauce, so I would do that. I tried Worcestershire at one point because I ran out of fish sauce.
Katie: Hmm, how'd that go?
Jen: It didn't fly by me.
Katie: Hmmm.
Jen: I need it to be like, super salty, total pungent.
Katie: Yeah. I see why you tried it though, and good on you for trying it, because I could see that working.
Jen: Yeah. So like you're saying, forcing us to, you know, depending on your circumstance, uh, really looking at what you have as not a lack of, but of, how could we--how could we make the most out of this?
Katie: Absolutely, yeah. There's a, there's a a wonderful book that I recently read. It's a cookbook by Anna Maggio, Under The Olive Tree. Basically it's a cookbook that's full of memories of a childhood in southern Italy in the region of Puglia, which is where I live. And I actually had the opportunity to interview the author, Anna Maggio. And I, I asked her, I was like, "So your book, like all of these recipes, and every, all these memories you have of your mom cooking, and how you all got your food, like, it really struck me as being so...such, like, the very definition of cucina povera. And yet you don't say the words 'cucina povera' anywhere in your cookbook." And her response was, "The whole book is cucina povera, but I never used the term because I thought it was too obvious."
Jen: That's interesting, because I don't think--I've maybe heard it once or twice, but I've never thought about how things become trendy, or things, you know, the price tag goes up on certain dishes. You're like, "Hmm, interesting."
Katie: I want to bring up one more example from this book, Under The olive Tree, because--so like I said, it is very specific to this region of Italy, right? So, so much of the produce she mentions, I'm like, oh my gosh, I see that in my market. And then one of the things she mentioned is called lampascioni, and I was reading the cookbook and I was like, "Huh, well that's, like, weird. That's like kind of the one thing that I don't see in my market." And obviously it's seasonal, and so some things wouldn't be, but she said, "No, in winter, like, this was a big thing." I was like, oh, that's weird. Well guess what? Next time I'm at the market, I see them. They're right in front of me. They've been in front of me the entire time, but I never really considered them, because they look like--so they're, they're root vegetables. They look like dirty, like, just dirt-covered small onions basically. So basically I kind of was like, "Oh, those are just like dirty onions or something," I didn't really know, I didn't really give it any thought. And then I read in the book that like, where she talks about them and she talks about how to prepare them. You know, you boil them, and then you just dress them with a little olive oil and vinegar. And--and it's, yeah! And so I was like, oh my god, so I got some after--in her book. I prepared it, they're great. They're bitter, um, but they're, they're really good, and with like, a nice glass of white wine, crisp white wine, absolutely excellent. And I was like...and these are things that are dug up from the ground and...
Jen: The earth's still on 'em.
Katie: The earth, exactly. And she was saying that in Tuscany, which is a region to the north, a richer region, they also have lampascioni, and they don't eat them.
Jen: Oh, that's interesting.
Katie: So it was--it was in Puglia because it was a poorer region, that they were like, "Well we're going to dig up these ugly, weird bitter things from the earth, and we're going to eat them because that's all we've got."
Jen: And now they're in a cookbook that you read and then replicated. (laughing)
Katie: And you know what, and it's true, and it's really great, and it's just like, you know what? With a glass of wine, this is like the perfect aperitivo.
Jen: Yeah. And it's interesting, like, you think about farmers markets. So where you are, these open air markets are a common thing, right? Compared to like, in New York, we have the Green Markets on--depending on your neighborhood, certain days of the week, and they're great. I will say, my first experience going to a farmer's market. I--so it was like, high school, mid-high school, and I generally like, always associated them with expensive food, expensive ingredients, expensive tastes. Because I would only see certain chefs talk about it, and the way that it was showcased on TV, and it's like, "Oh, that's only available--farmers markets are only for a certain group of people," it wasn't available for me. But then, when--I think--I can't remember who it was, but I saw someone of color go, and I went, "Oh," that was the first time I got interested in visiting a market. So I asked my mom, I was like, "Hey, there's this Union Square Farmer's Market, can we go to the city," right? And I went to school in the city, but I never went to see them. I never--I thought like, instantly, this is not for me, I'm not welcome here. And uh, we always got our produce and everything from like, the conventional markets around us, the chain stores, right? And so my mom's like, "Of course, let's go." I guess she also was hungry for that open market, um, experience that she has always had in the Philippines. And so we went, and it was a fantastic experience. And from then, like, I could never not go to one, but I remember feeling very intimidated, and like I didn't want to ask questions.
Katie: And I totally understand that. It makes sense. I'm so glad that you have discovered that you can go, and that you've--that's something that you get joy from.
Jen: Yeah. And especially I, I'm not sure if this is for all of America, but like, in New York they accept food stamps, right? Like it's done, and there's more being spoken now, but that this is accessible in getting out to communities, of like, "Try this."
Katie: It is also--if seasonality is such a big part of cucina povera, markets are such a great way to embrace the concept of cucina povera, because it makes sure that you're eating things that are in season, versus eating um, strawberry in February. You know, like, it makes you--it makes you stay on the, the seasonal thing, which is always kinda nice. But on the concept of cucina povera, there are many ways to look at it. There are many lenses through which to view it. And I'm excited to talk to our guest today.
Jen: Sophia Roe. I don't know if you you've seen her videos. A lot of her content talks about like, "Let's take away the stigma of using food that's preserved, in terms of like, frozen or canned, and and have that help with food insecurity," right? And not shun it. Not shame it, because a lot of it is good quality and captured and bottled up or jarred or freeze--frozen at the peak of its nutritional value. Um, so I'm really excited to hear her thoughts on it.
Katie: Yeah, that's great. Alright, let's--let's talk to her.
(midroll)
Katie: Today's guest is a powerhouse of food and wellness, access, inclusivity, and food and welfare advocacy. Sophia Roe! She's an NYC-based chef, host of the series Counter Space on VICE, co-host of the podcast Pillow Talk Sessions, and she's the self-proclaimed food and feelings lady, who is all about making affordable healthy food, OG cucina povera, something to take pride in.
(musical interlude)
Jen: As you know, I am a huge fan of you and everything you do. Every little thing. But one of my most favorite videos of yours is one where you prepared a whole holiday meal, just using canned and frozen foods, and I appreciate it so much because of your messaging on destigmatizing the cooking of canned and frozen foods, because it's out of necessity for so many people who are struggling with food insecurity, and that there should be no shame in it. So that's why we're so excited to have you as our guest today. You are truly a powerful, beautiful voice for the people. So thank you.
Sophia: Oh my gosh, well, thank you. I also equal obsession with you. So, like you don't even know. Like, when I--when I got your email I was like, (gasp) I was like, texted my assistant Daniel, I was like, "Guess who just emailed me?" Like, you don't even know. So like, real respect real, love you. And yeah, the whole idea of canned and frozen food, you know, it's--I have, this is a bigger conversation too, with like, what we see in sort of food media, how we see things. Food critiques, food critics, even the way that we that we--that we watch and take in food shows. Like, a lot of it feels not accessible. And I've noticed that even with food programming out there, a lot of times these shows make people like, "I can't do that, so I'll just appreciate it." But it's, you know, the bar is set really high for something as simple as eating and cooking and food. The bar is just set so incredibly high. It just feels so unattainable. While I think that stuff's remarkable, I think the Chef's Table of it all is really great, at the end of the day, we need to let people know, like, "Hey, this is something that you can do."
Katie: I feel like you hit on something really interesting and important, of like, food as entertainment versus food as the sustenance that it is, and that those lines get super blurred, like really, really easily. But first, I just want to ask you, are you familiar with the term cucina povera?
Sophia: I actually am. This sort of idea of like, poor cooking, and it's like, sort of a no-waste sort of concept and idea. I understand that, but I feel like, I don't love the word "poor." Also like, what is poor? But I don't--it's like a relative--it's another one of those ethical good-bad things. You know like you can have lots of money and still be very poor.
Katie: Mmm.
Sophia: You know? And so, I don't love--I understand it as a concept, but I am sort of like, a word person. So I uh, you know as a kid, I was very poor, but I was a pretty happy little girl by myself. And so like, I don't like to look at myself as poor. I don't like to use that word, especially as someone who's already, like an oppressed person. I'm always doing what I can to like, "This isn't poor cooking, this isn't poor food. This is actually, um, filled with tons of value, and filled with the ancestry, and tons of golden, and tons of richness..."
Jen: Life sustaining.
Sophia: Yes. Even when we're talking about enslaved cooking, or enslaved people. Like, I don't feel like you can have a conversation about food in America without talking about black people, tbh. (laughing)
Jen: Mmhmm.
Sophia: Um, even that idea of like, the poor cuts of meat, or poor folks, like, some of that is the most rich in culture, rich, delicious food. Like, you could call like, bone broth poor food, but it does not taste poor.
Katie: Right.
Sophia: You know what I mean?
Katie: Well--yeah, I think--I think you're right to put so much emphasis on the words that we use to describe things, and also like, the--how ironic it is that cucina povera is what it's called, like, "poor cooking, poor food." That has then been, like, elevated, to like, a trendy thing though.
Sophia: Crazy.
Jen: And even--not only restaurants, but--and I spoke to you, Katie, about this--about accessibility to fresh ingredients in farmers markets. I grew up thinking that wasn't for me. I grew up thinking, "Oh, that's only for fancy snobby chefs," and that if I went there, I would be turned away. And so it took me years to finally get there. Almost like, high school into college, is when I was like, "Oh, I could shop here too. It's fine."
Sophia: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Katie: Soph, you've talked about--are you still in Bed-Stuy, in Brooklyn?
Sophia: Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. Okay. So you've been there, and you've talked about how you don't have access to a great farmers market in your neighborhood, that you have to get on a couple different trains to get into the middle of Manhattan in order to get a good, a good fresh seasonal thing. And seasonality is a huge part of this concept of cucina povera. Um, how--how would you relate that seasonality, farmers markets, all of that to your experience, um, as a kid? Which, from what I can tell, you're clearly inspired by the work that you do. And I just, and I would love to hear more about your experience as a kid, and foster homes, and how that inspires you.
Sophia: Yeah, I mean, there are a few places in Bed-Stuy, if you know about them, you know? There's a few little spots, but you're not--it's nothing like a Union Square. It's nothing like what they got in Fort Greene. It's nothing like what they got in the, you know, the areas that are more gentrified, aka where there's just white people, um, more of them. And uh, you know, again, I'm--I'm very privileged in that I have the ability to like, of my own two feet, and I can walk and get on the train. And I have, I have the privilege of like, affording a MetroCard swipe, or three, to be able to get myself to those places. Um, you know, like, my my childhood experiences were pretty clear as a kid. I just was like, I got the free lunch, and then you see like, my free lunch versus like, the kids who could pay for their lunch, and what does look like, you know? And I saw as a really like, young person, like, some people have access to good stuff, but some people don't. That's weird. Why is that? You know, where does this come from? I mean, I remember being in middle school and also seeing, too, this--I was fascinated with like, why things come from where they come from. I am in Florida, and I'm watching the lunch woman, who was very sweet by the way, unload this truck with oranges and citruses that were coming from Mexico. And I remember thinking, "That's weird. I have, like, orange trees in my backyard. We living out here in Florida! What is this? Mexico! Ma'am?" You know, like, I remember just being like, "What? Huh?" So I was always kind of a kid that was really, like, interested in, like, where things come from, why do they come--why is that, you know, why do I not have what this kid has? You know? And uh, what is--why is money the sort of conversation there? Like, oh, this person has more money than me, so they have better food. That's weird, because we all need food, right? To live. So even as a really young person, that was something that I really majorly, majorly connected with. I didn't want to be like--it wasn't like I was trying to be a chef. I was definitely fascinated with Great Chefs of the World. I remember that show. Like it was all--like, we didn't have cable. I would watch, it was all like, fuzzy.
Jen: (laughing) Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Sophia: Yeah. Uh, so I was always fascinated with food, but I never saw myself there. I didn't see anyone that looked like me. I didn't see anyone that I related to. Um, still kind of don't. Little bit, a little bit better. I just don't relate to the big dinner, the holiday. I don't--I just, I never will. It's never gonna be like, why food is important to me. Like, I remember going to bed rumble tummy, like, "I'm hungry." You know? Like, that's real, and more people now are experiencing it in the past year than in the past 50 years. Families that previously had never experienced hunger or any manner of food insecurity are experiencing it. And so it's really important for me to let these people know, even in this food insecure hunger state, you might only have--you might be standing in a food line, you know, you might be, just have rice and some canned food. I promise you we're gonna make you some, some bomb shit. We can do that. We really can. It's like, fuck Michelin, whatever. We can make risotto with jasmine rice. I promise.
Jen: Yes. (laughing) It does work.
Sophia: We gonna figure it out. It does work. We can do this. You know, it might not be a turkey for Thanksgiving, but it'll be scrumptious. You know, and we can work that out for you, and I just want people to know that you can have that quality of meal with eight ingredients and still really enjoy it with your family and have something very, very memorable. Like, that is a very sexy idea to me. I just--as a kid, I want to belong, I want to belong at the cool table. You know, and I just want everybody to know that like, food--food shouldn't have that, right? And when you're making your own table, it looks like elevating jasmine rice. You know? Like, that's like, what it looks like sometimes. (laughing)
Katie: Was it a hard pitch? Did you pitch the show counter space to VICE?
Sophia: Actually, I didn't. I didn't--I didn't pitch them, it was their idea. VICE was very just like, "This is--we need to do this. Like, global supply chains have been affected by this pandemic so, so intensely, and it's a pandemic." So like, you know, they don't even--I still don't even know how we did that, but we did.
Katie: (laughing) Pulled it off. You pulled it off. You did. Um, Sophia Roe, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And you all can follow her on Instagram at @sophia_roe and just keep up with all the awesome stuff she's up to.
(musical interlude)
Katie: You know, Sophia has been called a seasoned optimist, and I see why, because I feel good. Like, I feel that something actually can be done about the system that we're all working in. I love talking with her about how good food is just good food, period, right? And labelling things accurately and being being aware of the words that we use. You know, it really makes me realize that it is one of the most important things that we can do for ourselves, our body, and our mental wellbeing too.
Jen: Yeah, good food. You know me, Katie, good food means good poops.
Katie: And on that note, if you all like the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a rating and review. You can also drop us a question using the link in the show notes, and in the meantime you can see what we're up to by following us on Instagram at @jeneatslife. She will not be on the toilet when you check out her story. (laughing)
Jen: (laughing) You know that's a lie.
Katie: And I am at @qkatie. And a special thanks to the musician who wrote and performed this theme song, Brian Quinn. Hey yo, that's my brother. Um, you can follow him on Instagram at @bqfunk.