Whether you call it aperitif or aperitivo, apéro or fika or happy hour, Jen and Katie talk bubbly drinks, salty snacks, and more with cook and TV personality Rachel Khoo.
Jen Phanomrat and Katie Quinn talk about the happiest hour, aka aperitivo, apéritif, and fika. They also talk about airplane food, ice cubes in wine, and how Apéritif author Rebekah Peppler and Food Network TV personality Rachel Khoo craft Friday coziness affordably.
Special thanks to our listeners for your questions and Brian Quinn (@bqfunk) for our theme music.
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Katie Quinn: Hey, I'm Katie.
Jen Phanomrat: And I'm Jen.
Katie: This is Either Side Eaters.
Jen: We're friends who talk about food, whether it's across the table or across the Atlantic Ocean.
Katie: And we answer questions like, "Do your calories suffice for dinner?"
Jen: Coming up in this episode, we'll talk about aperitivo, aperitif. However you want to say it.
Katie: We'll also chat with the incredible Rachel Khoo about her various experiences with aperitif from when she lived in Paris to Stockholm to London and more.
(musical interlude)
Katie: Let's dive into our questions. Here's the first one.
Call-in: Hey guys, Connor here. I don't know about you, but I cannot wait to get back on an airplane and go somewhere. My question to you is, what is the best airplane food you've ever had? Um, and also, maybe, why is airplane food always so bland and boring?
Katie: Aww, this is a great question. And I have definitely a series of flights that come to mind for the best food. Korean Air.
Jen: Yes! Yes, yes yes.
Katie: (laughing) Is that what you're gonna say? So basically it's just like delicious Korean food, which--so think bibimbap, you know, think um, crunchy, delicious vegetables...
Jen: All the banchan.
Katie: Ahh, yes, exactly, all the little things and then you can mix them together. And you know, I've had like a bibimbap type of version of uh, airplane, basically, where it doesn't actually come in like a steaming hot ceramic bowl per se. But um, so delicious. And I think those really strong flavors, like the fermented vegetables, you know like kimchi, things like that. It makes such a difference when you're in an airplane because the flavors just pop. Whereas to Connor's point, usually things taste so bland, which is actually, has to do with--do you, do you have, you know, do you know about this Jen?
Jen: Yes! I did read this somewhere, or maybe it was a tweet, but someone was talking about how it affects like, your olfactory senses, right? So your nose, your taste.
Katie: Exactly.
Jen: Why is that?
Katie: I don't technically scientifically know, but I do also know that when you're in the airplane, so the further up you are in the atmosphere, things change. Human bodies are not used to being at that height. And so not only does it change our sense of taste, our other senses, it also affects how emotional we are. And so did you know that you're more--we are more prone to crying at a movie when we watch it in an airplane than we are on land?
Jen: Holy shit!
Katie: And that is true.
Jen: That is so true. I'm just thinking that I--the last few flights I've taken, I've cried over a movie.
Katie: Yes! Where usually you would not cry if you were just watching it on your couch at home, but the same reason more people are prone to crying in an airplane is why they feel like the food is so bland.
Jen: Wow. So I was going to say also Korean Air, since like that's how I would go to either Thailand or the Philippines, and Korean Air is just--thank you for having delicious food. (laughing) But my first is LAN Chile.
Katie: (gasps)
Jen: So I uh--it was also one of the best and most exciting dining experiences Leo and I have ever had, because (laughing) we took a flight from here, from New York to Peru, and the food was awesome because we had like a pollo guisado, so like some sort of chicken stew with--Leo I think had rice and I had potatoes, and then like, the warmest buttery bread with ham and cheese. But the reason--it's delicious, it tastes like home cooked food. We just felt so comforted. But what made it amazing was that there was bottomless wine.
Katie: Whaaaaat.
Jen: Yeah! In like, glasses, like fancy glasses. And you know, I was just eating, kind of in my own world, I was sitting all the way in the economy, and I'm just seeing the flight attendants like, hugging bottles of--these wine bottles, and they're just like...it starts getting loud. Like, people start eating and then slowly the volume in the cabin gets higher and higher.
Katie: Hahaha.
Jen: You're like, ooh, you start seeing people from around the cabin, right? (laughing)
Katie: Getting a little friendly?
Jen: Like, having a little chit chat over here. Exactly. And, and, once the flight attendant came down, she's like, "Do you want a whole bottle or just a glass?" I'm like "This is complementary? Oh yeah."
Katie: Do you want a whole bottle?
Jen: This is amazing. So we just we just shared a whole bottle.
Katie: I mean, that's romantic right there.
Jen: Yeah.
Katie: Gosh, this makes me--this really does make me want to get on a flight again and go somewhere fun. Connor, thank you for the question that has made us just wish we were in a flight right now traveling somewhere beautiful and delicious.
Call-in: Why do people put ice cubes in their wine?
Jen: My quickest response to that is because some people like it cold and some don't. I mean, I get it, I've seen some friends and family do that, and sometimes in the summer if I'm feeling like it, I'll do it. And so like yeah, if anyone has a problem with it, don't yuck someone's yum.
Katie: For real man. I mean yeah, that's my thing with it is like, get new friends if they have an issue with you putting ice cubes in your white wine. Like, I do know that--I don't know.
Jen: (laughing) Get new friends.
Katie: I--yeah, you know, I do understand why people who are super into wine are against adding ice cubes, because it dilutes the flavor. I totally get that. But some people want a chilled white wine when the white wine is not chilled and they don't want--and they did, you know, especially if it's like a $15 bottle of wine.
Jen: Exactly. Even $5. I'll pop in--if I'm not feeling ice cubes, frozen fruit. Boom.
Katie: Oh yeah, that's classy though Jen. That's classy.
Jen: Yeah! Just popping it.
Katie: Bam.
(musical interlude)
Katie: Since we are across the Atlantic Ocean from each other, I mean, do you remember the last time that we actually just sat down and drank together?
Jen: Yes, I do very much. It's one of my favorite memories. (laughing)
Katie: You do? Uh oh. (laughing)
Jen: We drank way too much tequila, but I'm glad we did, because we had a great time and were just hot hot messes over some tacos.
Katie: Yeah, we got some good Mexican food too, right?
Jen: Yeah, and we made--well we started off by making your avocado margaritas and then we were like--those were done and we just went, "We don't need a cocktail, just bottle up." (laughing)
Katie: So--right, so I feel like American happy hour is pretty specific in it's like--usually tending to go fairly hard, It's about high alcohol or two for one beers. So if it's low alcohol we'll get a lot of it in.
Jen: Mmhmm.
Katie: Um, I think it's interesting that you say you associate it with snacks, because generally speaking, I would say food is like, not necessarily a part of the American happy hour. It's more about the booze.
Jen: True. I think--in my experience, because I have very low tolerance for alcohol, I'm very excited to attend if there are snacks.
Katie: Yes, and necessary for the low tolerance reason.
Jen: (laughing) Yes, I need something to fill up the belly.
Katie: Exactly. Um I mean my experience in London, uh, they--they go hard at the pub, um, with beer. It's like, very beer heavy and um, it is actually a thing in London to not eat, like specifically not eat before or during, uh, pub time. And often people will actually be proud if they just like skip dinner if like, they had a beer dinner. And they don't have to eat dinner after, and you know, to me, I'm just like, I would be ruined if I didn't--if I didn't either eat beforehand or get home and eat.
Jen: Do you think it's like a calorie thing of like, I'm consuming calories with the amount of alcohol and beer, you know?
Katie: I think it is, I think--yeah, yeah, exactly, it's like the beer calories. But it's like, ehhh, that's not the same.
Jen: Yeah, like I'd be hot mess Jen, and you don't really--you don't want to see her, sorry.
Katie: For real. I have seen her, (laughing) and I I love her, I love her all the same. Uh, but so Jen, this is yet another reason why I can't wait for you to come visit me in Italy, because here we have aperitivo. It is a time of day to stop working, stop what you're doing, and just hang and remember that you're human, and I love it, I love it. Are you familiar with aperiti--that's my French accent coming into Italian. (laughing) Are you familiar with aperitivo?
Jen: Oh yeah, yeah, my sister-in-law is a French Italian.
Katie: (gasping)
Jen: And so she's kind of introduced that culture into our family.
Katie: So I want to hear more about all of those different cultures, how many of them have something akin to aperitivo, but you mentioned Italian and French, uh, in your...sister-in-law, is it?
Jen: Yes. Hi Vero!
Katie: And that is a perfect segue to aperitif, or more colloquially apero, and um, it's a huge--there's actually uh, there's a debate on whether the Italian or the French came first with this cultural tradition. From what I've read, the Italians do have a slight edge on what we think of as aperitivo or aperitif, just in terms of the dates of things happening, that the Italians were on it. But it's very tight. I don't want any um, France admirers to come at me. Um, don't at me.
Jen: (laughing) Don't come for Katie.
Katie: Yeah. (laughing) Uh, but it is a glorious, glorious tradition. Aperitif, also aperitivo, indicates three different things. Number one, it's a moment of the day. It's a time of the day. Number two, it is the--an entire genre of spirits, of drinks that are consumed during this time of day. So it's the drink that you drink. And number three, it is the bottles themselves. So Aperol is a bottle, you've seen the bottle of pinkish red Aperol. That is an aperitif. It is also a common aperitif drink mixed with sometimes soda water, sometimes prosecco. Um, that is an Aperol spritz, and that is an aperitif. So both the French and Italian words are derived from the latin verb aperire, which means to open. The reason is for the purpose of actually opening up your palate to be ready for dinner, opening up for food, for more food. So an aperitivo incorporates elements of taste that are often quite bitter, and they make your mouth water and want those salty potato chips that are so perfect with aperitivo. That's not an accident, that's on purpose, because it's supposed to happen leading up to a meal. I remember in Paris we didn't have much money and we would have aperitif, and that ended up being our dinner as well.
Jen: Yeah, but what a satisfying one.
Katie: Oh my God, bubblies and potato chips and like a dip? Into it. It's perfect. Some carrots, and oh yeah, it was perfect. So it derives from, from this Latin word, and this concept has been around for a long time, because the Romans had something very similar and they called it gustatio, which was essentially the same thing. This was for the richest members of Roman society. They would titillate their tongues before these lavish banquets and dinners, and they would have these amuse bouche, and they would also have this drink called mulsum--I'm not sure if I'm saying that right-- which is like a really alcoholic wine, um, usually mixed with honey. This was very popular in ancient Rome, and it was flavored with spices to titillate the tongue and um, and get excited for that banquet. Fast forwarding to late 1700s, um, the origin of aperitivo was born in Torino, Italy in northern Italy. Um, I read a couple of different dates actually. I read both 1786 and 1796. So just suffice to say end of the 1700s. Um, this dude named Antonio Benedetto Carpano, owned a bottega, um, and--which is, you know, a shop, a place where people would go and get drinks and be merry. Um, he created vermouth!
Jen: Mmm.
Katie: And actually his bottega still exists. Its name has changed, but it's called Café Elena in Torino. so if anyone wants to go to Torino and visit the birthplace of aperitivo, you can do that.
Jen: Me, me, me.
Katie: So he created this drink. It was a hit. 1919, Aperol was founded in Padova, and then in 1920 another really popular aperitivo drink here called Select. It's really big in Italy, but I never heard of it being in America.
Jen: I've never heard of it.
Katie: Yeah, and you can get a spritz Select, just like you can get an Aperol spritz.
Jen: Mmhmm. That's my favorite.
Katie: Yeah. Okay, so if you ever have the occasion, go for a--go for a Select spritz. Okay, so there is also some people who have said that the tradition begins in Milan, where the Ramazzotti brothers invented there amaro. Um, and then in Milan, the Martini family came up with their vermouth, and um, in 1862 Gaspare Campari invented Campari. So basically it's all around this time, the late 1700s, the early to mid 1800s, this really became a thing. And it has not stopped being a thing in this country, in Italy where I am now, um, also in France. And I dare say that it is starting to become more popular elsewhere in the world. I have a good friend, her name is Rebecca Peppler. She actually wrote a cookbook, a kind of a cocktail cookbook, um about this, it's called Aperitif: Cocktail Hour The French Way. And she breaks this down, and she comes at it from the perspective of an American, experiencing happy hours like we just talked about, living in New York City and being like, "Yo, I'm going to go broke if I keep on happy houring like this, living in New York City," but she's like, "I still want to see my friends, I still want to hang out with my friends." And so she started incorporating in her Brooklyn apartment, something more akin to aperitif than to happy hour, because she would have friends over to her rooftop, with like, little bites, snacks that she would put together, and these spirits, these drinks, or sometimes wine, um...
Jen: How cozy.
Katie: So cozy, and that goes along with this idea of aperitivo also, the coziness, versus the getting smashedness that I think many of us associate with happy hour. (laughing)
Jen: (laughing) The get smashedness.
Katie: Like, do you associate coziness with happy hour?
Jen: Uh, no. Unless I am hugging the toilet. (laughing)
Katie: Yeah. Right. Oh my God. (laughing)
Jen: That's as cozy as I'll get. (laughing)
Katie: So I think that this might have something to do with open container laws being different in the US than they are in Europe, because in Europe, this time of day--aperitivo often takes place outdoors. I mean some of my favorite memories of having aperitif in France when I lived in Paris was outdoors, at a park or along the canal with friends.
Jen: Ugh, so nice.
Katie: It's so nice. Guess what? You can't do that in the states, because if there's a police officer around, you're gonna be in trouble.
Jen: Yeah. I was gonna say, the Latin word, that that opening to the senses, to welcome meals, right? To welcome food. I also like to think of it spiritually, of like opening up to each other, right?
Katie: Ahhh.
Jen: You're like, with people that you're mingling with, or you love, and it's like that time of day when you're just like letting go of, you know the work you've done, any stresses. A moment to connect with people. You're opening yourself up. You need a little alcohol to do that. (laughing)
Katie: (laughing) Absolutely. And I mean, it's--and it's just as important, that spiritual opening is just as important as the food or beverage in front of you.
(midroll)
Katie: I'm curious, Jen, in your experience, have you noticed anything similar?
Jen: Um, in terms of that kind of break in between parts of the day, yes. Alcohol, not so much so. Uh, in the Philippines, or like with my mom's friends and family here, we do merienda. So that's like--and that stems from Spain, so...
Katie: And the word for snack in Italian is merenda.
Jen: There you go. A little snack time. So the merienda, we would either--you can either have it first thing in the day, right, before you go to work, or as sort of like, brunch time. Or I like it, um, in between lunch and dinner. So kind of like that happy hour time. But it's generally, uh, similar to like, in Sweden where it's coffee, right? Coffee and snacks. It's similar to that where it's coffee, um, with like flaky, buttery pastries, or um, empanadas, or puto, the bingka, all these delicious things. So it's like an occasion, or in a weekend when someone comes over, it was my first introduction into coffee. So I was probably like four. (laughing)
Katie: Oh my--you drank coffee at four? Wait, how did this go down?
Jen: I hated the taste. So, merienda time, and we have this--um, it's kind of like a palmier, like a very crunchy, uh, delicious sugar coated pastry.
Katie: Uhhh, yeah.
Jen: And my mom's like, "Okay, you want to try coffee?" And I was like, "Yeah, give me," Right? "I'm an adult." And she put a small little cup, she said, "Don't drink it, just dip your cookie in it, and taste the coffee like that." And I wanted to be like her. I thought my mom was so cool, so--my mom is cool, I still think she's cool.
Katie: Yeahhhh.
Jen: Dipped the cookie in, ate it, and then I chugged the whole thing, hated it. And I thought, "This is gross, this is dumb, why are you doing this?"
Katie: (laughing) Oh my god. So speaking of the ways that this concept morphs a bit depending on where it's occurring, let's bring in our guest who has some fantastic experiences of this kind of thing.
(musical interlude)
Katie: Today's guest is a name many of you know. It is the unstoppable Rachel Khoo. She's a food writer and broadcaster, having hosted series for BBC and Food Network, and she's the new judge of Great British Menu. She's written many cookbooks, including The Little Paris Kitchen and The Little Swedish Kitchen, which gives you just a hint at just how international her food experiences are. My first question for you in our quick fire round of questions: dark chocolate or milk chocolate?
Rachel: Um, can I say dark milk?
Katie: Yes.
Rachel: So I mean, the last year and a half I spent researching chocolate, and I realized--I was speaking to a few craft chocolate makers--that dark chocolate is a big thing at the moment with craft chocolate makers, because it's an entry point for people who are into milk chocolate, don't really want to try dark chocolate. But it's a way of getting them into. So dark milk is usually at 48, 50 percent. It's like, it kind of--you still get that real kind of full bodyness of like a dark chocolate. But then it's a little bit softer, and the milk kind of, kind of tones it down and stuff like that.
Katie: Well, you totally threw a wrench into that either or question, but I love it. It's like a best answer. (laughing) So just talking Swedish buns here: cardamom or cinnamon?
Rachel: Well, then I would say semla. (laughing) I mean it--semla? You haven't had a semla? You haven't lived! Katie!
Katie: What--what's a semla? Is it a spice? Is it a bun? What is it?
Rachel: It's a bun, it's a Swedish bun, and you have it--so instead of pancake day, in Sweden you have semla day. And semla is--imagine a brioche. So a soft pillowy bun spiked with cardamom, and then it's got--like it's hollowed out a little bit, and it's filled with almond cream. So like, it's like, almost like a frangipane. Then it's a big dollop, like a cloud of whipped cream on top. And this is the bun they have in February. Like, the tradition was to use up all the fat and like, before Lent kicked off. So this year they brought the semlas in earlier. You literally--most of the bakeries were doing them in the New Year because people were needing something to bring joy.
Katie: I was just thinking like, how great that that's in February, like, one of the ickiest months of the year.
Jen: One of the lulls. (laughing)
Rachel: Exactly.
Katie: I love that they brought it in even earlier there. Like, "The people need semla." (laughing)
Rachel: And there's a bakery in Stockholm called Lillebrors Bageri, Little Brothers Bakery, and they--oh my goodness, because they roast their own almonds and make their own almond cream, and they're, like, the baking there is insane. Even if you go like, the rest of the year and you get a cardamom bun or cinnamon bun, because they put so much butter in their buns, the butter pools at the bottom of the tray with the sugar and the spices, and they have a bit of salt in there, and that turns into a caramel, and when it's hot out the oven they drizzle even more butter and sugar on top of that.
Katie: Oh my god.
Jen: This is not safe for work. (laughing) This is for the after dark show.
Rachel: Anyway, that's like one of my top bakeries in Stockholm. So if you ever are in this part of the world, I would highly recommend going to that bakery.
Katie: You've just proven that we could talk to you about anything and everything food for a very long time. The reason we have brought you on Either Side Eaters today is to talk about aperitivo slash aperitif, as you would know from your time in Paris. And--but also compare that to the culture that you live in now, in Sweden, with fika. And and so before we get into all that though, let's rewind to when you live in Paris. Do you have any memories that stand out of the aperitif ritual?
Rachel: Oh yeah, totally. So when I lived in Paris, I was broke, and I used Financial Times to make my paper mâché piggy bank, and I put my cents in there, and sometimes I would have to shake out the cents to buy half a baguette. So I was pretty broke back then. And so aperitif was the cheap way into a restaurant. So when you couldn't afford a meal, you could afford a glass of wine, and like, maybe a cheese board or charcuterie board you share with friends in the summer. What was even better was all my friends, we all had tiny, tiny flats. You couldn't even swing a cat over your head, like anybody does that. (laughing) Um, so we would all head to the park, and I lived in Buttes Chaumant, and so Buttes Chaumant was my local park, and you would just--everybody would come with, like uh, some kind of snack, and you would all share a bottle wine, and that would be like, aperitif, which ended up being aperitif from breakfast until it was just like...(laughing) because more people just would come, you know, and people would go, people would come, and kind of like, it was a whole day thing. You'd either do that at Buttes Chaumant, or I also like the Canal St. Martin. Down by the canal, everybody knows that canal if you've ever seen Amélie. It's the canal where...
Katie: (laughing) Yeah, Oh God. I like that Amélie has now become the reference point.
Rachel: I know, I know. Anyway...
Jen: You saw me, I was like, "Uh huh, yes, now I know."
Katie: I mean, but, but really, those are two of my absolute favorite places in Paris. Uh, and so I love that you associate those places with aperitif and just the all-day hangs. So I think it's really interesting too, because the concept of aperitif, it can be a style of drink or a kind of drink. It's also a time of day, but it's such an ambiguous time of day that it is something that can stretch for hours, it seems.
Rachel: And that's what I loved about aperitif. It's like, I couldn't afford to like, go to these fancy restaurants, but I could afford maybe a glass of wine and and uh, you know, a little cheese board. Or, you know, I couldn't afford to have, you know, I didn't have a big flat, so--but I could afford to have a big picnic aperitif, and just have all everybody come, and it'd be a huge mingling and it would be a really laid back affair.
Katie: So that makes me think of fika, which is the only time I ever experienced it was in Sweden with you, and, and, and, and you just described to me this pause in the day, you know, and it's not alcoholic from what I understand, but it sounds also actually very similar. Like, there's a lot of parallels to aperitif in other ways.
Rachel: Well, fika, I mean, there's no direct translation. It's basically the time of day when you take a coffee and usually a sweet treat, and in Sweden it tends to be a bun, cinnamon or cardamom bun. Um, and fika, you tend to do it usually around--between breakfast and lunch, and lunch and dinner, so it's like around ten, and then around three, kind of that style. But for me, fika was when I first moved to Stockholm, I didn't know anybody. I was like, Rachel no friends. So I would be an Insta-stalking people and like, seeing whether they're into food, and on like, on Instagram. So I would like message them, "Hi, my name's Rachel, I don't have any friends. Do you want to meet for coffee?" (laughing) Or like, I would say, "You want to meet for fika?" And I always liked the idea of actually, we're not just having a coffee, we're also gonna have a sweet treat. And it would be a good excuse to discover like, lots of lovely bakeries in Stockholm. So it is like--I think what Swedes are very good are, finding terms, or they have like words in their language which um, are about taking time in the day to interact with another human being, to enjoy something delicious. Um, so you have fika, but they also have this word called Fredagsmys. And Fredagsmys is a translation of friday coziness, and it literally means getting home on Friday after work, putting your tracky bottoms on, and having like--they always have taco Fridays here in Sweden, that's really Swedish. Taco Fridays.
Katie: (laughing) That's so random.
Rachel: They have like, really kind of easy going food. So Friday is all about Friday coziness. So I like the idea of having these terms in the language that really, kind of like, you're enjoying food, you're taking time out, you're, you're slowing things down. And I think that is what aperitif, that's what fika's about, you know. It says a lot about culture when you have that, you know.
Jen: I like that that there's a term to embrace, like, the start of the weekend, like that Friday cozy. Whereas like, here, all I hear is Sunday scaries. (laughing) It's like, let's worry about the later, right? But that the idea of Friday cozy, let's embrace this moment, let's be with good people, good food, enjoy the moment. Yeah.
Katie: And I love that food is a part of all of these traditions that you're talking about. Like, it's not just about the alcohol, or it's not just about the caffeine. (laughing) It's like, enjoying food as well.
Rachel: It's really interesting to see how a Nordic country has embraced a different kind of approach to food, and they're all in e-cookbooks you can find on my website, and I'm donating all the proceeds to Women's Aid, who are doing an amazing job at helping women and children in domestic abuse situations.
Katie: While you're on her website, also sign up to her newsletter, and of course you can check her out on Instagram at @rachelkhooks. That's K-H-O-O-K-S, Rachel Khooks. Rachel Khoo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Jen: Thank you, thank you.
Rachel: Thank you for having me!
(musical interlude)
Katie: You know, to me, Rachel is just the ultimate savvy creator, like in and out of the kitchen.
Jen: Super inspiring for me. And it also so interesting to hear her talk about the concept of aperitivo as it exists in countries where aperitivo doesn't exist.
Katie: Yeah, I love that. You know, she really brings like, the sweet to aperitivo, which is a drink that is often bitter and carbonated and a bit sweet in order to stoke the appetite. But she brings all the sweet.
Jen: All of it. I am ready for some drinks, some munchies.
Katie: If you like the show then don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review. You can also drop us a question using the link in the show notes. And in the meantime hit us up on Instagram at @jeneatslife and @qkatie. Special thanks to the musician who wrote and performed our theme song, Brian Quinn. That's my brother. (laughing) You can follow him on instagram at @bqfunk.